The New Fables Questions for Willingham thread

[Andy Jones]

The djinn can't just do anything, unlike like the genie's that we think of. Well, at least I assume so. For instance, I doubt that anyone could wish that the Empire would fall and the homelands would be free and jolly. The djinn isn't a walking retcon, its a loosely controlled malevolent power.

And the Frau hasn't done anything mind boggling has she? Her ability to regenerate has been explained, and it also seems to show limits. The Hansel and Gretel episode was her worst death, if I recall correctly. I think she tells Baba Yaga about having died several times, even being burned to ash once. And, I was under the impression that she would be trapped in a sort of inert state if Snow and Rose hadn't helped her out. Kay's eyes and giving Beast control over his curse seem pretty mundande considering she's a witch... witches do these sorts of things all the time no? A witch turned some prince into Beast, we all accepted that in our youth. And her intervention in the djinn episode was because she was clever, it was good writting.

To me, deus ex machina isn't about ridiculous power being exerted, it's strictly about an author writing themselves into a predicament that they can't write themselves out of without introducing some new power that is outside the narrative. Deus ex machina makes stories uninteresting. They make you think, "why am I reading/watching this when I know that the danger isn't real, there won't be an consequences." They turn stories into big let downs. Frau, the djinn, Mr. North... those guys make Fables interesting, and their presence is always very unsettling, you know that somewhere down the road there will be consequences for their actions. Even Bigby is like that. There are no gaurdian angels in Fables, that I can think of. No plot escape hatches in character form.

We had this discussion before, remember the thing about Santa Claus showing up at the battle of Fabletown and saving the day with his Christmas lasers? http://fabletown.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... sers#19829

[Chaim Mattis Keller]

Sorry, but even with your narrow, classical definition, I think Frau Totenkinder qualifies. During March of the Wooden Soldiers, Bigby asks Kay to check out "Red Riding Hood," only to discover he'd gouged out his eyes, and they take a few years to grow back...so we're left with no answer for a few more issues, and Bigby leaves Fabletown at a critical moment. Suddenly, there's a need to reveal that Trusty John had turned traitor (and I don't even remember any hint in the prior issues that there was any traitor, maybe it's all just a setup for an appearance in the Witching Well), bang! Frau Totenkinder can regrow his eyes quickly! And Beast...ONE OF THE VERY FIRST SCENES IN THE WHOLE SERIES has Beast being threatened with getting sent to the Farm because he can't control his curse, an issue that has dogged him for centuries. Suddenly he's appointed sherriff, and it's inconvenient for him not to have muscle when needed, so bang! Frau Totenkinder can adjust his curse!

Bottom line is that until we see evidence to the contrary, it looks like Frau T., in addition to being a character with her own agenda, is a convenient plot device for magically rectifying any situation introduced as intractable in prior issues. She's like that Simpsons episode where Lucy Lawless is addressing a bunch of obsessive Xena fans who nitpick continuity problems from her TV series, and she just answers everything with "A wizard did it."

[Donald Hargnett]

Bigby asks Kay to check out "Red Riding Hood," only to discover he'd gouged out his eyes... And Beast...ONE OF THE VERY FIRST SCENES IN THE WHOLE SERIES has Beast being threatened with getting sent to the Farm because he can't control his curse.... Frau Totenkinder can adjust his curse!

I have to disagree with these. Second first, Frau T would have been able to adjust the curse all along, Beast just couldn't afford to pay to have it done. All the non-emergency spells and transformations the 13th floor does are cash jobs. His new job as Sherriff made it a "government" concern, so either Fabletown paid to have it done or the Frau did it out of community spirit (and a laugh).

As for the first, She could have grown his eyes back then too, Bigby never thought to ask. To me, this shows Beast adapting to the job and stretching his mental muscles.

As for the Frau herself, I don't think she'll betray Fabletown to the Adversary. He's just one more man that's caused her trouble and pain. She has been around for a loooong time and is used to doing things her way and thinking she knows better than everyone else. A long life gives her a long term view of things so individuals don't matter as much as Fabletown's lasting survival and her's with it.

[Andy Jones]

She's like that Simpsons episode where Lucy Lawless is addressing a bunch of obsessive Xena fans who nitpick continuity problems from her TV series, and she just answers everything with "A wizard did it."

I agree with what Don wrote, but I have to point out that Frau's action's aren't some sort of nebulous thing after the fact, to be explained as "a wizard did it." They're clever little things preplanned into the story, and were always reasonable potential actions. Why would she not be able to change someone's words, alter her own curses, or regrow someone's eyes? Frau T is very clever, and her power isn't limitless. If she was less clever and more powerful, then yeah she's just be doing some sort of Doctor Strange or Scarlet Witch type retconning magic, or we'd be getting silly explanations like Star Trek technobabble used to close up a narrative problem. All of her solutions thus far have been plausible and really inventive. To me, they show how well thought out the writing is.

The only magic feat so far that really blew me away was when the 13th floor kept the battle of Fabletown secret. But, there were many of them working together... and they didn't just magic away their enemies (that would have be a let down). It should also be noticed that Frau didn't fix the battle of Fabletown with a magic word or anything, she just dueled with another witch. As I said before in the other thread, if there was a deus ex machina at the battle of Fabletown, it was Bigby, he saved the day and literally blew the problems away. But, his arrival was preplanned, he leaves on an errand, he find the gate gaurds dead and assumes someone is on their way to Fabletown, and rushes back (not before Fabletown has suffered losses).

Bottom line is this... if you don't want to read a story where characters have supernatural powers and use them to get out of their sticky situations, you shouldn't be reading Fables. This book has Santa Claus in it, the guy who visits every house in the world, in a single night.

[Chaim Mattis Keller]

Bottom line is this... if you don't want to read a story where characters have supernatural powers and use them to get out of their sticky situations, you shouldn't be reading Fables. This book has Santa Claus in it, the guy who visits every house in the world, in a single night.

Now, that's hardly fair. I love super-hero comics and Fables as well because I like seeing people use special powers to get out of predicaments. But generally those special powers have some form of definition. Bigby can become a big wolf (with a great degree of influence over other wolves), has excellent senses even in human form, and is in touch with, and can generate, wind. Beast, Grimble and Hobbes can become a super-strong monsters. Kay sees the evil in people's pasts. Briar Rose puts people to sleep. Clara can blow fire. And yes, Santa Claus visits all houses in a single night, delivers gifts appropriate to each, and knows who's naughty or nice. The Snow Queen freezes things. Gepetto animates wood. All are pretty much immortal.

What I don't like are nebuluously defined, "can do anything they really want to" powers. The only way these work well in a character is if the limitations of those are known (e.g., the wielder of the genie's bottle knows he has a three-wish limit). While I'll admit your answers to my Kay and Beast issues are satisfactory explanations of why Frau T. didn't do these things before (and I'll add to that the fact that Bigby clearly didn't trust her very much), it's still telling that she (alone!) did these things on request even after telling Prince Charming how tightly she (and the entire 13th floor!) needed to ration their magic spells. So far, she seems to have a "can do anything she wants" power. And I'd love to be shown that that's not true.

[Andy Jones]

I can't argue that her power is defined, because it certainly isn't at this point. I think that is largely because Frau T doesn't want anyone to know what she can do, or what she has already done. Sooner of later we will learn more about her intentions and powers. The OGN was the first revelation, and I'm sure there will be at least one more before it's over. But as of right now, it appears to me that her sharp mind is her greatest asset.

Anyway, I assumed that the glamours that Prince Charming wanted were impossible because they are maintained spells and the Thirteenth floor can only maintain so many enchantments at once. Beast's curse was already present, Frau just fiddled with it. And being that it was her own spell originally, it seems natural that she could change it. And Kay's eyes were regrown once, they weren't permenantly enchanted by Frau T.

[Donald Hargnett]

She may have also told Prince Charming they couldn't do all the spells he wanted to keep her power level secret and/or just to mess with him and teach him a lesson on taking the 13th floor for granted.

The most power we've seen the Frau use is against Baba Yaga. Everything else, Stopping Yusif and the genie, new eyeballs, Homeland spies seem to be low level magic cleaverly applied. I don't think it's far fetched she's spying on Fabletown as well. If she's keeping an eye on friend and foe alike, it's reasonable she see trouble coming and is prepared for it, making herself seem more powerful. Every advantage she can and all....

[Andy Jones]

The most power we've seen the Frau use is against Baba Yaga. Everything else, Stopping Yusif and the genie, new eyeballs, Homeland spies seem to be low level magic cleaverly applied.

well said.

[WarPlayer]

She may have also told Prince Charming they couldn't do all the spells he wanted to keep her power level secret and/or just to mess with him and teach him a lesson on taking the 13th floor for granted.

I think we've seen that the Frau does not particularly like princes. Her telling PC that the 13th floor is near the limit of their ability to cast spells, or at least permantent glamors and transformations struck me as a convienient fib.

I don't think it's far fetched she's spying on Fabletown as well.

She told PC as much when she said that things that happen in Fabletown, or was it the main office building, can't be kept secret, at least from her. I think that line is in The Mean Seasons somewhere.

[Ian Westhoff]

I have a quesiton that I hope can be answered here. Andrew Clark suggested I try it here, so here goes:

Whatever happened to the Headless Horseman? We know that Ichabod was Constable of Fable Town for a while, then became a spy for the Adversary until Cinderella and Bigby fished him out. But what was the Headless Horseman up to? Was he, or is he still, working for the Adversary? Or is he living a peaceful life up at the Farm not harming anyone?

[Bill Willingham]

The headless horseman has a cameo in the upcoming Halloween issue of Jack, but it won't answer your question. It will just add to your confusion. Why? Because we're evil, and we like it.

[Stephanie Horn]

I'm not sure if it's been asked or not, so don't attack me! hehe...

Okay Bill, who's death did you enjoy writing and who's death did you hate to write?

[Ian Westhoff]

Awesome! A Headless Horseman cameo will be perfect at Halloween time!

[Bill Willingham]

Okay Bill, who's death did you enjoy writing and who's death did you hate to write?

Shere Khan in both cases. First, because it was the first major death and the first signal to readers that, in Fables, we weren't afraid to do major series shake-ups. Second, later on I felt that Shere Khan was such a terrific villain I worried that I killed him off too soon.

Which is why he is back in perhaps the only way that doesn't violate my nearly absolute dead-means-dead rule.

And your growly polar bear icon is just too damned cute. I am thinking of requiring all members here to change their icons to pictures of themselves doing the growly polar bear thing.

No wait -- better yet, let's just designate an official polar bear day, on which day, everyone who replaces their usual icon with a growly polar bear photo of themselves, like Stephanie, will earn big hero points -- or maybe even something actually of worth. Now how much lead time will all of you need for such an event?

[Jonathan Cook]

Okay Bill, who's death did you enjoy writing and who's death did you hate to write?

Shere Khan in both cases. First, because it was the first major death and the first signal to readers that, in Fables, we weren't afraid to do major series shake-ups. Second, later on I felt that Shere Khan was such a terrific villain I worried that I killed him off too soon.

Which is why he is back in perhaps the only way that doesn't violate my nearly absolute dead-means-dead rule.

And your growly polar bear icon is just too damned cute. I am thinking of requiring all members here to change their icons to pictures of themselves doing the growly polar bear thing.

No wait -- better yet, let's just designate an official polar bear day, on which day, everyone who replaces their usual icon with a growly polar bear photo of themselves, like Stephanie, will earn big hero points -- or maybe even something actually of worth. Now how much lead time will all of you need for such an event?

I'm game for such an event. I just got one question. Shall we expect the great Bill Willingham to also have a growly polar bear icon of himself? I mean an event of this magnitude would be even greater if the greatest of greats were to participate.

[Al Ellington]

Hey Bill have you been approached to make Fables into a Television Show or a movie?

[Stephanie Horn]

Okay Bill, who's death did you enjoy writing and who's death did you hate to write?

Shere Khan in both cases. First, because it was the first major death and the first signal to readers that, in Fables, we weren't afraid to do major series shake-ups. Second, later on I felt that Shere Khan was such a terrific villain I worried that I killed him off too soon.

Which is why he is back in perhaps the only way that doesn't violate my nearly absolute dead-means-dead rule.

And your growly polar bear icon is just too damned cute. I am thinking of requiring all members here to change their icons to pictures of themselves doing the growly polar bear thing.

No wait -- better yet, let's just designate an official polar bear day, on which day, everyone who replaces their usual icon with a growly polar bear photo of themselves, like Stephanie, will earn big hero points -- or maybe even something actually of worth. Now how much lead time will all of you need for such an event?

So do I get extra big hero points for being the inspiration? And blame Chris Opperman! He told me I should make it my icon.


And there is a Polar Bear Day. It's February 27th!

[Stephanie Horn]

Okay, reading through some other questions, I have thought of a new question. You said that Lizzie Borden would be a Fable. Is Elizabeth Bathory a Fable? And is so, would you consider making her a part of the story? I think she would be awesome as a member of the Advesary's horde.

[Bill Willingham]

Hey Bill have you been approached to make Fables into a Television Show or a movie?

Many times.

[Judson Russell]

Have you ever been just plain approached?